re: Is Poker Stars cheating ?

[david]

here are my stats if its of any help from tournement starting hands
AA 139
KK 115
QQ 148
JJ 165
10 10 154
33 119
22 142
It doesn't sahow number of hands on that page but on the tournement page it shows 31887 hands.

I show in the money ITM% of 32.29 and am basicly paying break even poker

[endofthedial]

Major online poker sites like Poker Stars and Party Poker are definitely not rigged. They are making money hand over fist with very low overhead. They don't need to rig the games and in fact they have way too much to lose should they be caught. Maybe some of the fly-by-night companies might be desparate enough to give it a try.

I'm so tired of reading, "That's [fill in the name of any poer site here] for you! This damn game is so rigged!" in every chat box. These people obviously have not played much in a brick and mortar card room. Weird XXXX happens all the time there. In the long run every weird combination of hands and cards is certain to come.

[Hogan]

If you want proof poker sites are rigged, check out this link.

http://www.billrini.com/index.php/20...ker-is-rigged/

[endofthedial]

Wow -- I stand corrected. That link does indeed provide irrefutable proof that at least Party Poker IS rigged.











lol!

[gringo]

Originally Posted by endofthedial

Major online poker sites like Poker Stars and Party Poker are definitely not rigged.

Nobody can prove ( or at least has to date) that online poker sites are rigged. Equally, however, its not possible to say they are DEFINATELY NOT rigged. The most any of us can say with any accuracy is that they APPEAR not to be rigged- a very big difference.

To say someone has no reason to do something is not proof. Why do some very rich people shoplift for example? They may do it just because it gives them a buzz. People do not need a reason to be dishonest.

In the case of online poker rooms, they have a very good reason to rig the cards. It is in the poker rooms interest to have as many players as possible playing on their site. Generally speaking, the more players that play on the site, the more rake they get. So what they dont want is for weak players to lose their bank quickly. So why not give them a "helping hand" now & again to stop them going broke so they play on and continue to contribute rake for the site? As long as the stats are kept within acceptable variance no one can proove anything.

Sure, the poker rooms make a fortune, but its a fact of life that no matter how much you have, you want more. This applies as much to companies as it does to indivdiduals- especially if the company has shareholders who want a big a return as possible.

Now I'm not suggesting that this actually happens - but on the other hand I cant prove that it doesnt- and, as anything that relies on faith in human nature, it would be as well to be very suspicious indeed.

[Kozzmic]

Well said. I couldn't agree more.

1. Totally unregulated industry (in any meaningful way)
2. Billions of dollars at stake
3. Intense competition for players
4. Little if any chance of getting caught.

and many people are "positive" the sites don't cheat. I would bet these people don't read much history.

[Burnie]

Every site I've played on, it's the same thing. They blame the site. Over and over.

Just accept the fact that you got a bad beat and move on.

Do I see more bad beats online than in real games? Yes I do, at every site I've played on. Do I think it's the site? Not at all.

When I play with friends in real games, we often talk about what we had after the hand. The games are casual, but we play 1 table tourney style with a $100 entry, so nobody is throwing away chips often.

After the hands are done, quite often someone pipes up - oh I had the straight, I had the flush, oh I folded trip 4's with 8 kicker etc. In many games.

The difference? In online games, people will play some of those dumb hands and get lucky. Alot of times the people who made the straights in the real game got it on a runner runner. If they had played it, they would have won, giving someone a bad beat. A good player isn't going to play those hands, and if the blinds are high, they won't even see the flop

Get to a final table in a tourney with 100 people in it, and you will see many less bad beats. Simply because you don't see the same hands being played. Go to a low blind money table, and you'll see tons more bad beats.

Thats poker, if you really wanted to test if something special was up, then you need to just take like 9 players, have them never fold, and watch how many times those AA get beat, or whatever.

Who knows if they are cheating. If you honestly think they are, then quit playing there. Personally, I think you just can't handle a bad beat. The only thing I see out of the ordinary online is the number of people who play stupid hands. sometimes they get lucky, usually they don't. Throw a bunch of them around, and you are bound to see a few get lucky.

[gklimczak]

I would have to aggree to sites being rigged on 2 case's I see over and over again. Then add a comment at the end.

1. I have turn off my auto post the blind button because I have seen when you turn it off you start getting cards. I wondered if the software recognizes that you have made a decision to quiet (by changing it to not post) and wants to keep you in the game. I keep seeing this over and over so I do not autopost blinds.

2. I play alot of tournaments online from Pokerstars to Fulltilt. Why is it ever time I have 4K or 6K and everyone else have less than 1500 do they all of a sudden move me to a different table where everyone has atleast 5-6K. What kind of balancing are they doing.

Lastly, it just makes good business sense to keep the fish in longer and let them win to keep them coming back for more. How many times have you played golf and hit that one great shot that keeps you coming back next week. Until the poker sites can be regulated (in some way) we are at the mercy of them and fish. I agree that is the good players consistently win then the web site would only have 10,000 playing instead of 100,000.

Just my thoughts.

[JohnSmith]

75% of statistics are made up. The beauty of someting being random is you can get back to back pocket Aces (happened to me last week) or none at all.

Here are my stats from PS over 2345 hands:

AA 6
KK 13
QQ 8
JJ 8
TT 7
99 11
88 13
77 9
66 11
55 12
44 9
33 16
22 7

Well gee I got one less AA than the lowest amount for any other pocket pair showing up. It must be rigged!

[Kwalla]

I don't see why the frequency of getting any two starting cards has anything to do with a site being rigged -- how often you win with the "best" starting cards should be a much better measure. If statistics say pocket aces win about 1/3 of the time (I think that's if two people go headsup/all-in from the start.. I'm sure someone will correct me).. then you should expect to win 1 out of 3 hands.

Personally, over 20,000 hands in my database, I've had AA 112 times and won 85% of the time with them -- disturbingly better than 33%, do I have that figure wrong? It's my winnest hand by nearly 10% and by far my biggest money hand. By winning %, my top five hands are, in order, AA, JJ, KK, QQ, AKu. Which is just what one would tend to expect.. no?

If PS, or any site, wants to pump up pot, why not give AA vs KK or QQ and have the K or Q hit on the flop/turn? What better way to jack up pots than by making sure monster starting cards hit too often?

Really though.. any major site has zero incentive to cheat. Why? Well, aside from raking in the money.. let's look at something else. At the moment, PS has 100,000 players (or so the website says). Let's say 25% of those are in cash games and the average stack in play is $100 -- not the average amount each person has in total, but just in play. That's $2,500,000 in play.

How much money do you think is in all PS accounts (not just active on tables) at any one point in time? Must be a quite a lot.. and if PS has half a brain (and I'm sure they do), PS would be investing that money in nice safe CDs or something of the like.. and rake in the interest on the funds.

This is pretty much what banks do.. where do think the interest you get paid on your checking/saving account comes from? The bank takes your cash and invests it or gives it out in loans. If the bank earns 5%, you get 1 or 2% as "thanks". Banks and PS know they only have to have a tiny fraction of the funds actually in cash to handle withdrawals. It's called fractional reserve banking.

It's very much in PS's interest to keep the game nice, level and as fair as possible. The more people who like the site and join, the more money they get off the rake and off interest -- with the added kicker of not sharing that interest with the players.